Tuesday, July 16, 2013

Tuttle Tastic!

Last but not least, I had an interesting conversation with Tuttle on Horseshit. Lisa asked me why I went there. My answer? I gave him exactly what he was prying for. She said I was just happy to have some interested in having a discourse with me. That wasn't it, though. I like to stimulate out-of-the-box thinking, just enough for him to consider another point of view. It was also a writing exercise. I tried to communicate complex matters in simple ways. 

I told him later that I enjoyed the conversation, and that he should stay just as he is. It's not my place to change him one bit. That said, it was interesting to see how the framework of determinism followed through in atheism just as it did in Christianity. People only see and hear what they want to. They have a hard time divorcing themselves from preconceived notions of reality. We all do it to some extent.

Lisa pulled a card to see if anyone else in the Horseshit social group followed along. She got the ten of swords and I laughed. So if any soul is brave (or bored) enough to read my blog, double your mental constitution.

Tuttle Tastic
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/07/02/human-head-transplants-could-become-reality/
Human Head Transplants Could Become Reality
abcnews.go.com
Boris Karloff as Frankenstein, 1931. (Credit: Universal/Getty Images) An Italian scientist says human head transplants could become a reality in this century, but don’t lose your heads over it. At least not yet. The most famous actual head transplant was performed on monkeys in 1970. The surviving…
Like ·  · Unfollow Post ·  · July 5 at 11:12pm
  • Seen by 13
  • Lisa Walling That's kinda badass. I want to transfer my head to a dude's body, so I can finally get my wish of teabagging someone.
    July 6 at 4:11pm · Like · 2Reply
  • Luiz Teles This is still theoretical. Imagine the complications ensuing if they actually tried this.
    July 6 at 9:25pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic There's no reason to believe we can't achieve this...eventually. What is cool is if we can do this it may be possible to have robotic bodies!
    July 7 at 2:42pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic This isn't really the most fucked up thing we may end up being able to do. The really fucked up thing will be recreating our brains / copying our brains to a computer. Which is the real you? Would you accept being put under uploaded to a machine and then your body/real mind killed? The next thing you'd know is that you are now an android, but everything else remains the same. That shit is hard to wrap you mind around.
    July 7 at 2:46pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic Reminds me of the move "The Prestige"..excellent movie.
    July 7 at 2:47pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic We are so attached to the fact that we are flesh and that if we threw that part away we wouldn't be us anymore. To make an exact copy of everything you are is hard for us to fathom, but it is likely doable.
    July 7 at 2:50pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic So, who would upload themselves to a computer? You can even be backed up and redownloaded to a new body in case something happens.
    July 8 at 9:10pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles We are about as far away from emulating the human brain as we are from colonizing planets beyond our solar system. Not even close is an understatement.
    July 8 at 9:56pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I do believe I can state it is just a matter of time and technology. We could make a huge leap in computing power with a breakthrough in quantum computing (not that D-Wave crap). As of right now it seems that computational power is a problem that may be covered in the next 10 years. Who knows how long after that before we can emulate the brain? Another 10 years? 20? 50? 100? I doubt it will be more than 100 years. Although it has nothing to do with this subject I'm just surprised by the amount of shit we can already do. Bet me a dollar we emulate the human brain in the next 30 years? 
    July 8 at 11:15pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles Computation and the human brain are two separate things. The human brain is self aware, a computer isn't. We couldn't emulate the human brain without first creating a self-aware AI. Modern science hasn't even began serious study of human of consciousness. We still defer to mysticism for that.
    July 9 at 5:01pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I'm not sure who "We" are, but I certainly do not defer to mysticism. Excuse me if I'm being blunt, but I think mysticism is a dead end to figuring out how the brain works. I find it dangerous to defer to something mystic when no other solution has been found. Computation/tech is also very important to figuring out the human brain. For example, we couldn't figure out things like cells, synapses, etc without technology. Right now we don't have the tools to recreate the brain or a self-aware AI. I'm sure thousands of researches would be insulted by the fact you think they are not serious about human consciousness research. The reason computation and the human brain are not two different things is that many believe the brain is just a really advanced computer that nature has created over many years. If we can recreate what the brain does precisely we may not need to program it. It will program itself. If you still need convincing you may want to research this story: Number 5 of a group of experimental military robots was hit by lightning, and suddenly became self-aware. Some kind of short-circuit...
    July 9 at 8:45pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic When I say program it...I mean program its intelligence. Perhaps that is the problem with A.I...or it could again be computational power.
    July 9 at 8:47pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic It does not surprise me that we had a picture of man with two penis heads before we had a picture of man with two regular heads.
    July 9 at 8:49pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA9WhYnsD_4
    El DeBarge - Who's Johnny (High Quality)
    Music video for El DeBarge's song - Who's Johnny from 1986, from the film Short Circuit
    Saturday at 2:24pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles Tuttle, how much do you know about the occult or the history of secret societies? You seem very dismissive of something you know very little about. If you did some research you'd see that most of the world's luminaries were initiated into secret societies like Freemasonry or the OTO. Don't take my word for it, look it up. I think one of the first mystery schools was founded in ancient Greece by Pythagoras. I think you mistook me to mean something religious by "mysticism." What I meant to say is that there are esoteric schools that have been studying the phenomenon of consciousness since we first rose from the swamps on two legs.
    Saturday at 3:45pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles My original point: First create a sentient AI. That's the only proof that man can compute consciousness.
    Saturday at 3:53pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic My lord, it would take me a life-time to study all the things I don't want to study. We may be talking past each other a bit. Recreating a self-aware/conscience computer is different than the study of what it means to have these attributes. As such it is better to continue exploring biology and computer engineering/science until we reach a dead end or a major slow-down. Thus far, I have seen no evidence of this train slowing down anytime soon. In other words we are getting closer to understanding how the brain works internally and getting closer to the speed of the human brain. We need to continue down this road. A sentient AI may, as I previously stated, create itself. Even humans did not just poof into existence. Biology/evolution had to build many blocks to get to consciousness. The fun part is humans will do it faster than biology did it.  I get the feeling that you don't think a self-ware computer is possible. If so, I would like an answer to just one question. If everything about you can be simulated is there something else special about you that would make you unable to be replicated? If so what is it? If you just believe we are not close, I can't say for sure how close we are, I haven't dedicated my life to biology or simulation.
    Saturday at 9:32pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles You know, I actually theorized this while showering today. Here was my thought. To be able to compute the human brain means that the human mind is finite. We could reach X amount of computational power and achieve sentience. The fact is, we still don't know the limits of the human mind - at least not enough to reach X. I don't see an AI springing out of the data we *do* have anytime soon, but that's my speculation. 

    It's not that I don't think it's impossible, rather, I think it's improbable. I'm less optimist about our current tech than you, that's all. There isn't enough funding into understanding consciousness because It doesn't make money like computer science. One science alone isn't enough. It's like trying to build a house without a foundation.
    Saturday at 10:06pm · Edited · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles Dude, I don't think anybody else is following our conversation...
    Saturday at 10:07pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I like these two quotes : " if we believe that human consciousness is determined by divine intervention, then clearly no artificial system can ever become self-aware. If instead we believe that human consciousness is an electrical neural state spontaneously developed by complex brains, then the possibility of realizing an artificial self-aware being remains open. If we support the hypothesis of consciousness as a physical property of the brain, then the question becomes:

    "When will a computer become self-aware?""
    Saturday at 11:49pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic and..."better get your lulz in while the Internet's still our friend."
    Saturday at 11:50pm · Unlike · 1Reply
  • Luiz Teles That first quote assumes "divine intervention" is something outside consciousness. People who meditate, practice yoga or do LSD experience consciousness as something far difference than what you think it is. Your reality isn't any more valid than theirs, and that's what makes rationalists twitch.
    Sunday at 12:09am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles Wow you and I are still going at this mental masturbation, when I'd rather be actually masturbating. You can thank Lisa for this little epiphany.
    Sunday at 12:12am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I disagree, I think most people will call you conscious regardless of how different your experience is from theirs.
    Sunday at 12:13am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I think the impasse here is that you believe there is something special in the way you think because you can have difference experiences, "spiritual" experiences if you will. I'm saying you are nothing more than a computer processing information based on some biological structural differences and the rest information processing.
    Sunday at 12:21am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles I've been "outside" my body before. I've seen and done things that science has no answer for - and I'm only a beginner. The scientific method is paramount to me. I'm skeptical about anything I haven't directly tested myself. In my experience, consciousness is infinite and transcends death. I can't make this any more real to you, than you can make it less real to me. To think anyone has all the answers is foolish and arrogant. I don't trust a guy in a lab-coat telling me what reality is anymore than I trust a catholic priest. I'll let facts and experience speak for themselves. Every person has to figure this out for themselves.
    Sunday at 12:34am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic Yes, I've also dreamed and at the time thought it was real. Even some freaky shit that I wouldn't accept without being in a dream. Amazing what our brains can do. You may be a beginner at manipulating your reality, perhaps without even realizing it. We get to choose what we believe is real. This is all beside the point though. I'm going to make you a promise my friend, one that you won't accept...consciousness will end when you die (given you're not uploaded to a machine)  Tell me about your experience 100 years ago? It'll be exactly like your experience when you're dead.
    Sunday at 12:39am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles Heh, that's the trick, isn't it? I can't prove it, write it and submit it to peer review. Like string theory, the immortality of the soul can't be proven in a lab. Not yet.
    Sunday at 12:48am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic It took way too long to find the impasse. Still not sure what your immortal soul was doing 100 years ago? Waiting on a body? What will it do when your body dies? Wait for another?
    Sunday at 12:51am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic Personally, the most logical conclusion is that if we have no state of conscientiousness before we have a body, we'll have none once it is gone (unless something can replicate it).
    Sunday at 12:54am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles I actually have some past-life memories. I was once an imperial kamikaze pilot, but didn't die in WW2 like I was supposed to. I died years later from alcoholism. I also have some hazy impressions of Europe in the 17th or 18th century. That's all I've got.
    Sunday at 12:55am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic Hell, there are even times in your sleep when you lose all consciousness and your brain is still running!
    Sunday at 12:55am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles What will I do when I die? I will focus on my aspiration and embrace change. That's all I can do.
    Sunday at 12:57am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles I still think you should drop acid, though.
    Sunday at 1:02am · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I tried it in a past life, didn't care for it.
    Sunday at 1:04am · Unlike · 1Reply
  • Tuttle Tastic You seem to have a personality that is pulled towards "mysticism" be it religion, god, spirit, or whatnot. You seek a greater power than what "reality" shows you. Personally, I think that thought process occurs out of fear of death, but I cannot be sure. Due to this fear (or something), you seek methods that point toward a spirituality. You'll take drugs, meditate, pray, etc to find something that you must convince yourself is there. I realize my personality style is the opposite and seems too closed minded to you. In the end, you believe a computer will not emulate a human brain/consciousness because we cannot recreate a soul. I do not believe in a soul so this hurtle does not exist.
    Sunday at 1:33am · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles I applaud you for trying really hard to figure me out. I know I seem irrational to you, but as I've said before I'm a skeptic. In truth, I've been fascinated with death all my life, because it's the ultimate mystery. I don't fear death, I fear nothing.
    Sunday at 7:37pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles "Fear nothing. Fear nothing. Fear nothing. Because I am nothing, and me thou shalt fear." Liber LXV I, 58,59.
    Sunday at 7:42pm · Edited · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic If a bad ass tiger doesn't scare you, you may want to rethink ...EVERYTHING. 
    Sunday at 7:44pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles I'll tell you what I do believe in: evidence. Show me a sentient AI and I'll believe in it.
    Sunday at 7:52pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic I think we'd have to come up with a common ground for what is sentient and that in and of itself may be difficult. Otherwise, without an agreement , you'd say the computer is not sentient. Also, I'm not asking you to have 100% faith in anything. You stated yourself that it is improbably from the evidence you've looked at. I'm saying it is highly probably from the evidence I've looked at. We seem to disagree on what the evidence is showing.
    Sunday at 8:10pm · LikeReply
  • Luiz Teles And you clearly know more about computers than me, so what the fuck do I know?
    Sunday at 8:11pm · LikeReply
  • Tuttle Tastic You know as much as I do about t his topic. I know little to nothing about biology. I also don't know if computers will become sentient in the way we believe they will. They don't really need to resemble humans. When they start programming themselves and adapting to what they need to do it may get scary out of hand.
    Sunday at 8:21pm · LikeReply
  • Lisa Walling You two dweebs just kept going like I didn't even post a jiggly titties gif. I'm astounded.
    Sunday at 10:40pm · LikeReply
Posted by at

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)